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Post by sueann on Oct 24, 2014 8:57:01 GMT -6
Ok, this is what we discussed at homegroup on Wednesday. It seems that we tended to discuss the converse more than that statement. Which would be "Does God punish us for past sins"??
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Post by sueann on Oct 24, 2014 12:30:53 GMT -6
So the bible states in Acts 9:16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” Meaning Paul. Was this punishment or consequences for his persecution of the Christians?
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Post by Brent on Oct 24, 2014 20:12:35 GMT -6
I think not. Jesus also told us that we would be hated for His name sake. To imply that Paul was punished for his past sins after his conversion would mean that God does not forget our sins. I believe I've read where He casts them as far as the east is from the west (Psalms 103:12). However, I will say this, I do believe that we can suffer from the consequences of our past actions. For instances, If I know not to stick my hand in a running lawnmower and I do it anyway then regardless of how sorry I am that I did that it will not bring my hand back. I will continue to suffer the consequence of my actions for the rest of my life. This does not mean that God is punishing me, it just means that my foolishness brought me consequences. God is not to blame nor is He complicit in regards to my choice to use free will.
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Post by #NO on Oct 24, 2014 21:18:11 GMT -6
#NO
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Post by sueann on Oct 25, 2014 5:46:27 GMT -6
Yes! Agreed! Consequences happen because of our choices. So does God chastise us as Christians? Doesn't he allow things to happen in our lives to direct us?
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Post by Brent on Oct 25, 2014 6:33:58 GMT -6
The question in the first comment was "Does God punish us for our past sin?" Now you're talking about chastisement post-relationship. I think these are two separate issues. Once we are forgiven...well...we are forgiven. Now, once we start on our journey with God and we willfully sin then I do believe that God will chastise us. Look, Jesus made it very clear that the God-mankind relationship is a Father-child relationship. Do good parents punish? Yes! This type of punishment/chastisement comes from a place of love and concern not malice. This punishment is designed to create in us holiness. I think the danger when talking about this subject is not to walk away with a version of God that looks like a abuse parent just looking for a opportunity to bring the pain. SUMMATION: God does not punish for past sin that is under the blood. God does chastise us out of love in our post-relationship to bring us into holy thinking and conduct.
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Post by Admin on Oct 25, 2014 8:17:50 GMT -6
I think not. Jesus also told us that we would be hated for His name sake. To imply that Paul was punished for his past sins after his conversion would mean that God does not forget our sins. I believe I've read where He casts them as far as the east is from the west (Psalms 103:12). However, I will say this, I do believe that we can suffer from the consequences of our past actions. In theory I believe we agree. But how are "consequences" for sins (wrong choices) not a punishment or chastisement allowed by God for our instruction or the instruction of others? I believe we are forgiven for our sins, meaning we no longer have to pay the ultimate price (death) because Jesus paid it for us and he hides our sins allows an unjust person (me) into the presence of a holy and just God. But he doesn't always excuse us from the consequences of our sins and I believe Paul experienced the consequences of his actions against the Christians. It was told to him he would suffer fo His name's sake (we all do) and he was not trusted (Acts 9:26) by other believers because of his past life. God allowed this. In Hebrews 12 God is spoken of as a loving father who chastises whom he loves. He is not a neglectful father who condones our wrong actions because we are forgiven. If God is the same yesterday today and forever, then the same God who called David a man after His own heart, allowed the child born of sin to die. Sad I know. I see consequences equal to instruction from God about our sinful actions. He doesn't strip us of salvation. He teaches us what He desires of us and allows us to experience the consequences of a fallen world. We suffer the consequences of others' sins too which seems unjust and unfair to us, but it happens. |
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Post by Brent on Oct 26, 2014 7:08:30 GMT -6
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him (Ananias), Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
In no way do I see this as punishment from God for Pauls persecution of the church. As a matter of fact, I would argue that verse 15 is a proclaimation to the church, through Ananias, that Paul is a honored and valuable. I think God was esteeming Paul to the church. Did Paul suffer consequences for his past action? Yes and no. From God...No. From man...yes. On the road to Damascus Paul met Jesus for the first time. Jesus actually introduced Himself to Paul and then told him that this is what I want you to do. I never see where God punishes Paul for his past sins. I only see where God starts him on his new life. Now, the consequences that Paul did face was with mankind and I don't think we should blur the lines and say that Pauls trouble with the early church was a God thing. To the contrary it was a mankind vs. mankind consequence. This is a different thing because mankind does not have often judge with the mercy, grace, and foresight of God. I'll say again, God was advancing Paul to the church in verse 15. I'll even go a step further and say this, when God changed his name from Saul to Paul it was God saying that He no longer knows the man he use to be. This is a prime example of Gods TOTAL forgiveness and change in Pauls (and our) lives. He no longer recognized Saul, Saul was dead, now there is only Paul...the "chosen vessel".
In verse 16 God was saying that Paul was going to suffer but not from his past but because of his future. The past is gone and all things are new. This suffering spoke of was future tense regarding the things that he would face in his proclaiming of Gods message. This is not punishment but prophecy.
In the case of David, this was chastisement. At this point in Davids life he has established a relationship with God. He knew God. He was THE major ambassador for God in the world. He sinned. Because of this God chastised him like a father punishes his child. The difference between Paul and David was their position (relationship) with God. Saul (Paul) did not have one...David did.
SUMMATION: God does not punish for past/forgiven sin. Mankind does. Not the same.
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